Insulation and Fan

[Tim April IV]

Ever wonder how much and what type of insulation lurks between the freezer compartment and the refrigerator compartment on our 350's?

Now you can see for yourself:


The angle is a bit funny, but it's between 3/4" and 7/8" foam. You can also see the part number and the electrical characteristics of the "spillover" fan (.2Amps).

Thought this might be of some interest.

[Dave Granata]

I don't think that's too terrible for between the freezer and fridge. But if you measure the sidewall between the freezer and stove, it's only two inches. (providing that the whole cavity is filled with foam). The Adler Barbour manual requires 4'' to 6'' . That's a huge difference. This is one of the reasons our freezers don't work the way they should.
Dave G
#226

[jnnielsen]

Has any one added insulation foam? How did you do it, and what products did you use? Pictures would be great.

I've done the extra battery operated fan and 1 quart plastic bottles filled with water in the freezer. I still do not get good performance when I'm off shore power.

Jerry

[Jack McDonald]

Here are the "wall" surfaces that make up the refrigerator box:

A. aft wall, for refrig and freezer, next to cockpit locker
B. starboard wall, for freezer, next to hull
C. port wall, for refrig, next to engine
D. forward wall, for freezer, next to stove/oven
E. forward wall, for refrig, mostly door
F. top wall, for refrig and freezer, has lids
G. bottom wall, mostly for refrig, has drain

Here's a little exercise to get you "hot" about the refrigerator:

1. Take measurements from the lid openings to the inside wall surfaces.
2. Transfer those measurements to the countertops, make a mark.
3. Observe and measure the distance from those marks to the nearest structure.
4. That is the "maximum" insulation that is contained in that space *

* Don't forget to subtract the fiberglass thickness from the potential insulation space

In walls A, C, D, E, F, you will find a potential for less than 2 inches of insulation. Using the above method, it is not possible to determine the potential insulation space for walls B and G.

Adding insulation to the refrigerator is one of my winter projects. I have some ideas on how to approach the project, and some of the materials to use. I, too, would appreciate hearing from anyone that has done this.

[LONGHAWK]

I received the "imrproved" insulation panels for the refrigerator and freezer lids from Catalina. The removal of the old ones is not for the week. I found it very difficult to remove the panels.but found a trick that may be useful to others. Go to the home improvement store or lumberyard and buy a pack of wooden shims. These are about 5 inches long and go from maybe 1/8th of an inch to 3/8 ths. Use them to drive under and around the edges , adding more until you get good lifting. Be patient. When all the edges are loose, you will need a long screw driver or blade to loosen the center area sealent. I used West Marine silicone as the sealant / adhesive to attach the new ones.

[Dave Granata]

I'll tell you Jack, this is truely the number one most disturbing things about the boat. I only measured the wall thickness between the stove and freezer and when I found it only to be 2", I did get pretty hot. I did this after I had the Alder Barbour repairmen out to the boat to check my unit. He did find a slight undercharge, but he primarily found the problem to be lack of insulation in the design. The freezer does work better now that it has the proper charge, however I will not find out how much better until July/august next year.
As far as the insulation goes, the Adler Barbour rep said that someone should do a comprehensive heat loss calculation on the fridge. Obviously this is labor intensive and expensive. He said if enough people complained to Adler Barbour that they may have to do it to try and find a solution or value engineer a fix. He also said that the freezer/fridge is too large for that unit without the proper insulation and he recommended adding a second unit to the fridge area to take the load of the freezer area, but that adds more complications because of the increased energy load. The obvious solution is to add more insulation inside the box. This will add wall thickness and also decrease space. The question is how to go about doing that job so it works, is sanitary, and looks professional, like the boat came that way. I'm just not sure how to go about doing it. Honestly, It may be cheaper to add another unit and try and deal with the added energy consumption(which actually may not be all that much).
Dave G
#226
Kent Island, MD

[KenKrawford]

Dave,
I share your frustration about the refrigeration on the C350. I took delivery of my boat in April of this year and the first thing I noticed is that the compressor would run constantly. An Adler-Barbour authorized tech looked at my unit, replaced the evaporator and tweaked the freon levels. I finally put an hour meter on the compressor and found that it runs 70% of the time.
I've called the dealer twice about the problem. He is supposed to be talking to Frank Butler about it. I'm not holding my breath but I'll keep you posted.
I'm afraid in the long run this will shorten the life of the compressor and the batteries. Since it would be easier to upsize the compressor (Super Cold Machine ?) than fortify the insulation, this seems like the best solution to me.

[Tim April IV]

I notice that Catalina used an AC/DC powered, apparently self contained refrigeration / freezer unit in the new 2006 C309 - as shown here:



According to the spec sheet, it automatically switches power sources to whichever is available.

Interesting option. Would deal with some of the power usage concerns we seem to have, and hopefully, as a self contained unit, they worked out the insulation issues a little better. Probably most importantly, they sized the compressor/evaporator/interior volume appropriately. While I enjoy the huge volume of our freezer and refer compartments, they obviously seem to be underservered by the equipment and insulation.

Picture from a dealer's website here:


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/ ... annapolis&

Good Luck!

[Guest]

Many thanks for your tip on installing the new and improved insulator panels. I received mine on 11/15. Since my boat is on the hard and covered for the winter, I will not try to fit the new panels until Spring.

In order to increase the performance of my fridge/freezer, I had Tidewater Marina install a vent kit with fan and I sealed all on the spaces between the top of the box and the bottom of the counter with expandable foam. After installation of the kit and making sure that there was no outside air entring the box, the fridge held a temperature of 40-45 degrees while the evaporator was at 5 - 10 and the box of the freezer held a temperature of 20 on a setting of "3". Sealing the space between the box and counter top made a big improvement. Prior to injecting the expandable foam, I had to defrost the unit weekly. Ather the installation of the expandable foam, the evaporator had minimal ice build-up after six weeks of operation. Assuming the improved insulator panels will futher reduce heat exchange, I will consider my fridge/freezer problems as solved.

Armin
s/v "Make Way"

[Mike Aston]

If you get desparate you could try the solution shown in the attached link
http://www.glacierbay.com/andersbox4.asp

[Guest]

All,

I agree that the frig/freezer issues are very frustrating and difficult to get your arms around, at least for this writer. This is especially true since the 350, in my opinion, is such a great boat in all other respects.

I worry with all the frustations out there, that non-owners might not receive a balanced assessment of the 350. There have been some posts pointing out the superb handling characteristics of the 350, and i ditto that.
I have found the helm reponsive and light, even in 25 knot winds, without reefing. And it is clearly not under powered.

We all know that u have to get to the 40' plus range to finds boats that can compete with the 350 for room, storage and fuel/water capacities,etc.
Morover, in areas where production boats get knocked, i found the fit and finish on my 350 to be very good. The interior design is well thought out.
The electrical/plumbing systems are well designed and executed. Not to mention the top of the line furlings gear, winches, etc. Finally, just walk on the deck and get a feel of how solidly the boat is built.

I do not want to go on-and-on but want to let people know that as a total package the Catalina 350 stands tall!

That being said, Catalina needs to aggressively address the few systemic problems that do exist. One being the friz/freezer issue. I have only seen one post where the owner was satisfied with his frig performnace and he did not indicate whether his unit was running all the time. This system was not designed/engineered properly. They are apparently addressing the vibration/cavitation issues. But they have not taken full responsibility for frig issue, letting the dealers and Waeco-Adler/Barbour run interference. Really all Adler did was put the unit in they were told to install by Catalina. In fact, the odd shaped freezer box restricted their choices. Furthermore, they [Alder/Barbour] have to be careful re their assessments, being in a vendor relationship with Catalina.

What we need is some type of collective effort [pressure] to get the dealers and Catalina to recognize there is a problem and sincerely address it. What we have now is the classic slow roll tactic. My dealer has tried to take the position that it is the hands of Adler/Barbour-Catalina, and by inference-not his problem. He is wrong! I purchased the boat from him, not Catalina. They are both responsible. I raised the issue during the warranty period and i intend to see that it is corrected or compensted accordingly.

These are my thoughts on the issue.

Al Barnes
X-Factor #326

[Triumph]

Since I'm here in Tampa near the Catalna factory, I would be more than happy to be the test dummy for this issue too. I'd love for them to evaluate mine, and improve the performance.

I am thinking of installing a blower on the unit, Armin says this helped his unit. Adler Bauber sells one for $107. My mode will cost $10.More on that when I get it finished.

[Chris]

I too have problems with my 2004 Catalina 350. From what I've been able to research the supplied refrigeration unit is not the correct size given the size and insulation of the freezer and ice box. This would be what lawyers would call a latent defect and should be fixed by Frank without question. I sail in the Great Lakes and cannot imagine how a tropical boat would keep anyting cool let alone cold enough to be safe to eat. A refrigerator should keep food at about 40 degrees and would be deamed a health hazard if it didn't. I guess if we get sick it's just sea sickness ot too much beer?

I have tried several soutions to no avail. Our friends have a Hunter 356 and a much better refrigeration system.

[Copacetic]

I was somewhat disappointed with the Adler-Barbour system that Catalina had installed on our C36 MKII and I finally installed a cold plate system that really kicked it down a notch...actually, several. When we chose the C350, we decided to have our dealer install the cold plate system during commissioning, although they can be installed easily enough after market. It's an upgrade worth doing.

[sluce]

I too had refrigertor problems all summer. the temp of both the freezer & fridge ran at about 45 degrees. I had the manufactor technician there twice to look at the problem and he basically said the Catalina did a poor job with insulation and the size of the compressor. From earlier dealings with what i considered factory/ warrenty issues, I'm pretty sure that frank is not going to fix this problem with out a lot of stink being raised by all 350 owners.

[KenKrawford]

I spoke with Frank Butler and Jerry Douglas 2 weeks ago about this same problem. They told me that it is an inconsistent problem. Some people's seem to be fine and others are having problems. I put an hour meter on my compressor and found that it ran 70% of the time in the summer (Atlanta, GA) and 35% of the time in the winter when ambient temperatures are 30 - 55 degrees.
They are supposed to send me a ducting kit to passively vent some of the air from the lazarette where the compressor is located. I'm skeptical but I'll keep you posted.

[Triumph]

I don't think this is an inconsistant problem. May unit runs constantly. The only thing that would make the problem any different would be the outside ambient tempature. I'm in Tampa, and my unit probably runs a lot more than the units in Maine. I think that this is the next big issue with the boats, and what we need is a leader from the owners assocation to represent all of us. I did this with the prop vibration issue, and I think we're close to having a solution. Gerry and Frank have been very attenative - maybe because it had the potetial to hurt the sale of 350's.

I started with a survey of 350 owners to see who had a problem. Would someone out there like to head this up? United we stand (a chance of getting a solution).

Bill

[Allsail]

Bill... The problem appears to be consistent, pervasive and warrants Association attention and response as u suggest. The 36 Association is an owner advocate with the dealers and Catalina for their members... per their web site.

While the later models appear to have better insulation, less condensation and in some cases improved freezing/cooling performance... their cycle times are still unacceptable. I have an 05 and it runs all the time during the summer, only recycling in late fall.

Moreover, marketing/selling boats with known design/performance deficiencies would seem to raise serious ethical/legal issues, especially if not addressed.

[knotmeter]

I have hull 148 and the boat is in Texas where its hot most of the time. When I got the boat the freezer would not go below 39 and frig below 50. I kept complaining to the dealer and they sent a local refrigeration specialist out to check out the unit. He found that when the copper line from the compressor to the frig was installed that a kink was put in the copper line. When the compressed gas reached the kink it started to uncompress and cool, you could feel the cold on the copper line where it was kinked. They replaced the whole alder barber system. It cooled somewhat better, so they came back out and adjusted the freon level. They adjusted the freon for 5 hours as the freezer cooled down. There is only 80 grams of freon in the system. So if its off just a tiny bit, it does not work properly. Also added the duct kit to the compressor, so it gets air from the bottom of the stern. I also put insulation tape around the top of the freezer and frig where it meets the counter top. This stop the sweating that was occuring on top of the hinges. Now the freezer goes down to 27 and frig 40.

[Triumph]

Jack,

With regards to your message about comparing notes on the refrigeration projects, you did not leave me your email address. If you want to reply to me personally, vlbaysailor@aol.com

Something needs to be done with our refrigeration and there are basically only two options, insulate the outside of the box or the inside of the box. (we are also in the process of adding a fan to the compressor). Before we decided on which route to take, I thought it would be a good idea to see exactly what is going on in the areas outside the box. Hence my posting to borrow a borescope tool. I liked the guys response about the camera for $25 so we probably are going to look and see if we can get that setup working on our laptop. It would also be handy for examining other sections of the boat too.

Our plan is to drill holes in areas not immediately visible by removing the drawers and drilling there and also drilling the side of the box by the stove. We will measure down and try to drill into the areas under the box, and run the scope through to see what is what. We particularly want to get a look behind the box in the area between the box and the a/c unit and the area between the box and the outside hull.

The other option of adding insulation inside the box has me concerned. Will the surface be washable, will mold and bacteria grow in crevices and such? Will bacteria get under the insulation? I am particularly intrigued by your idea of adding insulation inside the box and then building a new interior on top of that. How will you do that?

I personally would not seal your drain hole in the bottom of the refrig. What we did is found, at a hardware store, a small cork that fits into the hole. I sealed the cork with clear poly to keep it from absorbing as much water as possible and stick it in the hole. When I need to use the drain, I simply remove the cork, pump out the water and put the cork back in.

For all others on this 350 board, Jack and I are comparing notes on the refrigeration issue and see if we can come up with additional ideas on how to improve its performance. Be sure we will keep everyone posted if we somehow come up with a magic solution!

Vicky Lohman
Rhiannon #221