Bilge pumps

[NormSail350]

Hi all,

I have a 2003 - named Escape that I purchased early summer.

I have a primary bilge pump that keeps cylcling every few minutes it and have 2 inches or so of freshwater akmost always. I am pretty sure it rainwater and have not found the leak or at least the remaining leak(s)). There is a secondary pump (rule 2000 with float switch). But the the primary (a smaller orange Johnson automatic) pumps for a bit and water seeps back after a few minutes. So it just keeps cycling.

When I fill the bildge with a larger amount of water and manually operate the switch, water exists discharge in the rear of the boat. The pump seems to work properly. But there seems to always be that little bit that returns from the lines and hence the cycling continues. This is certainly true when there is little water - 2 inches or so in the bildge.

I see some old threads - that refer to a check valve. But I do not see a check valve - at least not near the pump. Further, most pumps state "do not use a check valve".

Would love to understand what bilge pump set up you have - check valve - no check valve?. If check valve, what kind of pump and check valve?

NormSail350
Escape
Palmetto Bay FL

[ps23435]

As you have seen, there are mixed reviews on bilge pump check valves. The argument for them is to prevent exactly what you are seeing, the bilge pump cannot completely clear the discharge line (too high a lift for the size of the Rule pump) so a check valve will prevent the remaining water from draining back into the bilge. The argument against is that if the check valve fails (becomes clogged, fails to open) the bilge pump will run but no water will be pumped out- that happened to us this season. I only have the one Rule bilge pump so for me there isn't enough water left in the discharge line to trigger the float switch (which is in the center bilge section). I suspect in your case the flow back is sufficient to trigger the first pump in line as it has an internal automatic switch.

I've attached a picture of how the setup looked when we took over the boat. You can see the gray check valve. I have replaced all the hoses and hose clamps (so please ignore the nasty, rusty ones in the picture!) and initially replaced the check valve (from West Marine). After the valve failed this Spring, I took it out. So far that has not been a problem. Our pump rarely runs - usually only when I intentionally drain the water tanks or fill the bilge to check the pump- the flow back is not enough to trigger the float switch. I do get rain water (likely from forward) but it's not been enough to trigger the pump.

[NormSail350]

Pete and Anita,

Thank you for your reply. I would love for my bilge to look like yours - even with the rusted clamps!

I actually purchased a bosworth check valve - it looks similar to the one in the photo, but was in doubt whether and where to install. I was thinking that the check valve would need to be installed close to the pump to insure there is enough pressure to push the water through the valve. So this weekend I want to try installing the check valve close to the "nuisance" pump (smaller primary) like in your picture and then leave the secondary larger rule 2000 pump ( with the float switch at the higher level) without a check valve.

To be transparent - when I bought the boat there was a jabsco check valve on the secondary discharge line about 8 inches away from the pump - but there were multiple connections and multiple hose sizes that did not fit and were leaking and the water was not passing through the check valve. I removed the check valve and replaced the hoses. There was no check valve on the primary/nuisance pump. My fear would be that the primary pump would operate and push water back into the secondary (because they seem to be the same discharge line).

I guess I need to try it out and see what happens.

I appreciate the response!

NormSail350

[NormSail350]

Pete and Anita,

One more follow-up - when you say you replaced all hoses - did you replace the entire discharge line to the rear of the boat? i.e., did you unscrew and lift up the floor boards around the bilge in the salaon? I was contemplating this to check out the hoses and also to see if I can get some direction on the leaks, but this looks like one large awkward piece of flooring (with los of screws - including a few rusty ones), I guess I should know what is under there regardless.

You have a much higher hull number than mine so maybe the flooring is different i a newer year model.

NormSail350
Escape (Hull 40, I think - I really need to check this
Palmetto Bay, FL

[ElizabethG]

I had fresh water accumulate slowly in my bilge.

Turned out my AC drip drain was clogged. As the water sloshed around in the drip pan, it fell into the base of the large cockpit locker and found its way into the bilge.

Other areas to check...

1) There is a little access cover in the forward area of the anchor locker. Check to make sure it is sealed properly.
2) Hot water tank leaking.
3) Check ALL the cold and hot water hoses where they are attached.
4) Check the forward and aft water tanks.

Bill
Atlanta, GA

[NormSail350]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply and the list.

Water tanks look good - all dry to visible leaking - was my first check

Access cover in front anchor locker is something I will check. I recently saw the same in another post in this form as well. Have not noticed that Access cover previously and will check when I return to the boat. I did have a little trickle in the front hold (the compartment under the front part of the mattress).

Hot water tank - hmmm. I know that I have a a line/drip coming from the rear of the boat into the bilge near the shaft just below. I think this is rainwater and have sealed the hatch to the manual steering mechanism. I need to reopend to see if the seal was good. Will also check the heater (it has not been used on my boat yet and have not really loooked at it much). So, will investigate.

I have looked at alot of hoses and connections a and the obvious look good - but will do a more systematic check now.

Thanks for the advice.

NormSail350
Escape Hull #40 (Finally checked)
Palmetto Bay, FL

[ps23435]

Norm: To answer your question about what we replaced. I did not replace the entire discharge line, just from the discharge line to the bilge pump. I am not entirely happy with the type of flexible hose but it is what I was able to fit into the space. I did need to use an adapter to marry it up with the discharge hose.

I believe the majority of the water we get in the bilge does come from forward. After heavy rains we get water in the small compartment just aft of the v-berth (access to the speed log through hull) and am sure it then flows through to the bilge. We've resealed the access cover forward but I am not convinced it is totally sealed. It is rarely much water unless heavy rains for several days.

[NormSail350]

Pete and Anita,

My bilge hoses have a similar set up. Flexible hose into the discharge line. But I have the two pumps. Will share pics of my set up after I solve the backflow (this weekend )

By the way, I have lived a lot of places, but lived in Charles City County on historic highway 5 near the plantations for 3 years while working in Richmond and attending school in Willliamsburg in the early nineties... ouch It’s been a while but love Virginia.

When I get my kids off to college would love to sail up that way. But I have a couple of years to wait.

[TBOT422]

NormSail,

The cycling of the bilge pump is likely due to a faulty or non-existent check valve. Whatever amount of water that is in the discharge hose when the float switch shuts off will slowly drain back into the bilge causing the float switch to kick back on. However, what you really need to do is to locate where the water comes from in the first place. Many good suggestions in this thread, however, for us, the big culprit was where the forestay tang goes through the bow pulpit. On our boat the anchor rollers form a V-shaped area that is sloped downward on the aft end (bottom of the V). On ours, the bottom of the "V" is welded closed. I have seen other350s that are not welded closed and rain water can flow out. On ours the welded bottom creates a cup that holds water. Unfortunately the forestay tang protrudes through the bottom of this "cup". The forces on the forestay tang create constant flexure and it is hard to get a good permanent seal in the area. I wound up filling the entire "V" cavity with Lexan. I have to replace it every 3 or 4 years.

We have a dry bilge nearly all the time now, however, presently we have some water occasionally when it rains. It seems to be coming from the mast as I can see a water track in the bilge area under the head sink where some of the wires and cabling from the mast enter the bilge area.

[NormSail350]

Gary and Janet,

Thanks for the reply. I agree I need to spend some time solving the water intrusion problem. I am assuming that will take me some time to solve, so i wanted to solve the bilge pump cycling issing first (as I thought it would be easy). I am pretty confident that this is a rainwater issue (does not taste salty at all) I live south of Miami and I have the boat hiding up the New River in Fort Lauderdale for the hurricane season - a little bit of a drive , so it is a sporadic weeked activity.

Where is your check valve? Close to the pump itself or farther along the discharge line? Do you have two electric bilge pumps or one? If two electric pumps, do you have check valves on both? Two discharge lines or one single for both pumps?

I think the bilge set up on my boat is not original and I bought the boat with what the surveyor said was a "normal amount of water in the bilge"

NormSail350
Escape (hull #40)
Palmetto Bay

[ElizabethG]

NormSail350,

My 2004 350 has one electric bilge pump. It is triggered by an external float switch sitting in the lowest section in the bilge.

In the pump's water exhaust hose, there is an "in-line" check valve about 6" from the pump.

I would send a pic, but I live in Atlanta and the boat is in Charleston, SC.

Bill
Atlanta, GA

[NormSail350]

Thanks everyone for al the replies.

I drovefrom Miami to Fort Lauderdale to see Escape last night just because your responses had me curious on the common leak areas so that I can think about what I might need to buy before working. Now I am excited!

Again, I pruchased the boat in June, so there are things that I have not really noticed or have attracted my attention. For example. I am replacing seals in the anchor windlass, and did not really notice the globs of silicone sealant around the forward door/hatch below the anchor roller and the globs in the lttle "cup" where the forestay tang goes through near the cuppish v thingy in the anchor roller.

I suspect that while there is lots of silicone globs there, it still my be allowig water to intrude. It seems that clear silicone was used. So perhaps cleaning that off and sealing with a gasket and 4200 maybe good place to start in parallel to solving the nuisance bilge pump/check valve.

What product did you use to seal these areas - 3M 4200? Other suggestions?

Can anyone send a picture of what they have done to the forestay tang area? Someone said they filled the litte cup area..

Thanks for the help!

NormSail350
Escape Hull#40

[TBOT422]

Here is a picture of how I sealed the forestay tang area through the anchor rollers. It's not very clear, but I believe you can make out the sealant around the tang. I originally used clear silicone, but that began leaking again after a couple of years. The second time, I used clear Lexan which seems to be holding up well, although it has turned a little grey.

Forestay Sealant.jpg (119.18 KiB) Viewed 2851 times

[TEM58]

Hi Gary,
Just so I understand, is the area I circled the spot you sealed? I’ll be back to the boat soon and want to verify that mine is not leaking. I don’t get much water, but there is a little from time to time. Thanks,

Tim

769B8D24-9DAD-4249-8AA6-277AA868C3D9.jpeg (66.65 KiB) Viewed 2841 times

[TBOT422]

Yes, that is the area that needs to be sealed, but much larger. The forestay tang is a stainless plate about 3/8" thick and maybe 4" wide running fore and aft through the bottom of the anchor rollers. You have to seal the area all the way around the tang.

[TEM58]

Great, thanks very much.