Bilge Pump System

[ps23435]

Greetings. Am new to the forum and association having just acquired a 350 (sail #437). Wife and I have been sailing for a long time just on "OPBs" ("other people's boats"). Having finally made the plunge and bought our own, I am working through all the systems and equipment to know it better. My question involves the 350's bilge pumping system. Mine has a Rule 2000 manual pump with a float switch. It is piped through a 1-1/8" flexible hose to a check valve (about 12" from the pump) then into the 3/4" flexible bilge hose which runs aft to the overboard discharge (joining the manual pump hose just before the discharge). I am assuming this was the factory installed system. Couple questions... has anyone "upgraded" their bilge pump system? If so, with what? The pump I have does not seem to pump very effectively! I've done a lot of reading in various forums re. bilge pumps and there seems a strong feeling about check valves- with most saying get rid of them. Has anyone done so on the 350? Seems the check valve works to prevent any back pumping when using the manual pump (since they are plumbed together) as well as keeping the 25' of water in the hose from back flowing to the bilge. Sorry if this is "old news" to anyone, it's all new to us! Thanks!

[MorningStar]

I had a problem with the bulge system due to the switch in one cavity and the pump in the other. The pump would continue to run once its cavity was vacated and begin to cavatitate because water remained in the switch cavity. Once water slowly moved into the pump cavity it would not pick up due to cavatition. It would just continue to run basically forever without pumping water.

I also had some manufacturing problem with the passage hole from the switch cavity to the pump cavity. I had to open it up with a drummel, removing some of the fiberglass. But even with the passage opened up, the bulge pump would cavatitate. The solution was to get rid of the mechanical switch and install a small electronic (no moving parts) bulge pump switch in the same cavity as the pump. I purchased the switch at West Marine. I also installed a check valve with a rubber flapper type in place of the bronze that came with the boat. The bronze kept sticking open or partially open. The check valve is necessary as you mentioned due to the manual bilge pump. I've used the revised systems for five years with the original bilge pump and it works fine. I test it about three times a year with a garden hose running into the bilge.

Hope this helps.
Barry Dupuy
s/v Morning Star #35
Kemah, TX

[KenKrawford]

Pete, welcome aboard and congratulations on the new boat.
I am one of those people who believe check valves on bilge pumps cause more problems than they cure. Because there isn't a well in the bilge for the pump, it's impossible to complete dry this area with a pump. Any idea how often your pump cycles?

With a deck stepped mast and a dripless shaft seal, the C350 technically should have a dry bilge. Having said that, I've been chasing the source of water in my bilge for 7 years! I had water dripping from a poorly caulked screw holding the float switch down in the shower sump. I also had water coming in through the space where the forestay splits the anchor roller. After fixing those problems I still get water in the bilge from sources unknown. An over filled water tank can also cause water to leak out of the inspection port.
If you're finding more than a small amount of water, you may want to search for the source rather than just pump it out.

[wcconway]

We are undertaking the correction of our ongoing bilge pump problem this weekend. Luckily, we have solved all of the leaks into the bilge over the last 3 years, so currently the only water in the bilge is from the weekly cleaning of the raw water filter for the AC and then flushing the bilge with fresh water.

Here's the problem: Since taking deliery of our boat in October 2008, the bilge pump would either not come on or would come on but not pump like Barry mentioned in an earlier post. Here are the various steps we have taken over the last 3 1/2 years:

-dealer changed out the check value
-dealer added a "basket" to the bottom of the pump (why wasn't it there to begin with??)
-dealer raised the float switch.
-dealer supposedly changed out the bilge pump

After each of these tweaks, the pump would work for a while. When it stopped working, we would do one of the following and it might/or might not get the pump puming again:
- rattle and shake the checkvalue and hose
-hit the top of the pump with the end of whatever tool we had handy
-hit the top of the float switch with the end of whatever tool we had handy
-pull the pump up out of the basket and shake it
-turn on "manual" mode at the nav station electrical panel

We installed a new bilge pump a copule of months ago. Worked great! Then, guess what??? Sometimes it comes on and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it just comes on and runs, but doesn't pump. Sometimes it won't come on until we run it on "manual" model, and sometimes it doesn't come on then either.

Same thing as the old pump. Sooooo, I guess we've been lucky that the boat has always been floating when we get to the slip, but I think our 9 lives may be up at this point.

Need the collective advice of C350 owners on how to work through the process of elimination to solve this once and for all. Please help!

[MorningStar]

I too had a problem with the bulge pump not coming on when it should and cavitating because the switch was in another compartment with water when the pump was in another with no water. The connection holes between compartments were slightly covered over with fiberglass the limited the flow of water to slow transfer. I solved my problem by replacing the pump switch with a electronic in the same compartment as the pump. This solved the cavitation problem. I also opened up the connection between compartments with a little drimmel, grinding away the fiberglass that was narrowing down the hole. All works fine now. I did this about 6 years ago after receiving the boat.
Hope this helps.

Barry Dupuy
s/v Morning Star #35
Kemah, TX

[saileagleswings]

Barry,

I routinely test the bildge pumps espically before a long cruise. Two weeks ago I found the schank on the check valve had broken. The flapper didn't seal so the pump continously cycled when I added water to the bildge. Replacement of the check valve solved the problem.

[randaldonnell]

I found this out the hard way....in panic mode.

Situation: The shower was filling with water due to a malfunctioning duckbill valve in the anti-siphon system. Water was running into the bilge and I wasn't panicked because I knew I had a bilge pump. The bilge pump started running and kept running but it wouldn't pump any water. Now it's time to panic. By the way I had just bought the boat and it was my first boat of size. The panic meter needle was pegged. The shower pan was full of water and the bilge was filling and the bilge pump was not doing its job. I flipped the manual bilge pump switch on and off several times and the bilge pump started to pump water.

What I have figured out is that when the pump cavitates (sucks air) it puts air up into the bilge hose which creates an air lock. Jogging the manual switch caused the pump to "jump" or "slam" basically overcoming the airlock. My bet is that the hose does not run flat but rather has hills and valleys in it if you will. Air gets trapped in the hill part and the pump has to overcome that.

The solution to prevent an airlock was to install a separate float switch high enough to prevent the pump from ever cavitating. Said another way, the intake to the pump always sits in water. Not an ideal solution if you like a dry bilge but at least I know that there is no air in the hose and the pump will pump water if it does come on.

In efforts to achieve a dry bilge I'm going to replace the current pump with a higher capacity pump and vacuum the bilge dry. Hopefully with the check valve in place there will only be water in the bilge drain hose i.e. no air lock. Now hopefully if the pump does need to come on it will be due to high water (above the intake part of the pump) and therefore will not sucking any air. The higher capacity pump hopefully will overcome any airlock if there is any.

All that said I'll still worry about water draining out of the bilge hose which would introduce air. The only other solution I can come up with is using a positive displacement pump, something like a diaphragm pump. This would have enough pressure to overcome any airlock.

Ancillary lessons learned. 1) Know where every thru hull valve is and make sure it is operating properly. Discovering this during panic mode is not the time. 2) Know how duck bill valves work. 3) test your bilge pump. See if it will pump water after forcing it to cavitate (suck air) for a bit.

[TEM58]

Hi Randal
Can you give any additional information on this “Situation: The shower was filling with water due to a malfunctioning duckbill valve in the anti-siphon system”? I’m unclear on where the water was coming from, and how it was getting into the shower. As far as the situation with the bilge pump goes, the system Barry mentioned in the previous posts seems to still be functioning for me (we bought his boat a little over 3 years ago).

[ps23435]

We make a practice of closing all sea valves whenever we are not using that particular intake. I know this may not be practical if you are a live-aboard, but the shower in particular seems more vulnerable to the problem as described. We just open the valve when using the shower and close when done. Just for peace of mind.

[cuthbert]

I think the shower syphon is overcome on a starboard beam reach as its close to the waterline at its highest point and off centered. If I forget to close the shower thru hull I get some (1/2gallon maybe) after a few hours at that point of sail. I also have the bilgepump cavitation issue, it appears a 50/50 proposition as to whether it will work effectively on a inch or so of water and since the bilge is always dry its just something I became aware of every couple of years when deep cleaning including the bilge.

I did always think that it may be a moot point and if you were taking on water continuously after the bilge fills right up the air bubble will be forced out and the pump will (if pump out rate betters the flow in rate) save the day. Thoughts?

[Interlude35]

I had a problem with the electrical bilge pump cavitation. With rising water level in the bilge, the level switch would activate & the pump would spin but not pump - it was air bound. I solved the issue by drilling a small hole in the check valve body just below the flapper in the check valve body. The provides a bleed path for air trapped in the bilge pump discharge/hose. Now when the electrical bilge pump is actuated by the level switch it pumps water with enough hydraulic force to open the check valve an pump the water overboard. We have a dry bilge so to test the bilge pump(s) I have to add water to bilge & of course vacuuming the bilge to dry it after the test. Note: when the electrical bilge pump is operating water will spray from the drilled hole so best to angle it to spray in a downward direction.

[hperros]

It's a good idea to check if it works, and I need to do the same too instead of taking it for granted. I don't think my bilge pump has a check valve. I cant remember what I have, but I think it's a Rule. What type of pump do you have, and where is the check valve???

[Interlude35]

Hi - We have a Rule bilge pump. The check valve is in the bilge on the pump discharge piping. The check valve is visible in the 4th picture on a Wed. July11,2012 post in this thread. Hope this helps.

[karlbrosky]

Hello everyone

I have a 2007 hull 449. Does anyone know the part number or where I can get a replacement check valve? The rubber flapper is defect. I went to West Marine and they only had smooth ones. Mine is threaded on the inside. Catalina Direct didn’t list any.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Monty]

we have hull 418, a 2007, C350. The bilge check valve is made by The Bosworth Co.....not easy for me to find out but its web site is: https://thebosworthco.com/. Look for the Sea-lect brand of foot/check valves. You can buy a replacement one OR they sell only the check valve itself...in several materials; I bought several to have a spare. Call the main number and the receptionist is very helpful. Shipped that day. I replaced the manual bilge pump check valve with a new one of theirs also.

[karlbrosky]

Thank you!! I will check them out.

Much appreciated!

[karlbrosky]

Has anyone had an issue with automatic bilge pump working sporadically? I replaced the check valve and pump (Rule 2000). I tested it this afternoon. It worked and then didn’t work. I put shop vac to hose and sucked in and blew out. All seemed clear. I traced it to what appears to be a T connection with the manual bilge pump. Does anyone know if there is another check valve in the T connection?

[Monty]

as you can see by this string, your issue has been common among us. Cavitation with the pump is an issue with 350's. Make sure your flapper valve works properly; in my post above, I report on where to buy new flapper valves. This winter, while the boat was on the hard, I separated the two discharges and eliminated the T joint. I now have two exhaust ports with the two bilge systems separated and not cross connected. My system seemed to just pump the electric bilge into the manual bilge and let most of it return to the bilge via the manual loop and expect this to help with the cavitation issue. I found the manual pump totally blocked by salt and debris and non-functional so replaced that with a molded model that almost matched the original holes; if the boat has been in salt water you should open the pump up and ensure yours is not ruined also.

[karlbrosky]

Thank you again. I appreciate your reply.

[nybor]

Is there a index listing for "Boat Owners ready to commit suicide"? Leaving for the Dry Tortugas and just checked to see if the shower drain pump was working. It runs but it doesn't drain. Water comes out of the housing. The thru hull valve is open. But where does the little piece of white tubing connect to the pump go? It seems to go under the toilet????? I cracked the utube anti siphon and water came out of it. (I guess that is ok)

thanks

dave