Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

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russp
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Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by russp »

Hi, hoping someone has come across this problem or has an idea. Yesterday after:
# a couple of hours racing, partly with prop locked in reverse, partly with prop freewheeling,
# going to windward pretty hard over, but relatively flat seas
# fuel tank more than 50% full, and tank just recently emptied, checked as scrupulously clean and refilled with fresh diesel
# Racor filter full of clean fuel (as far as I can see with boat vertical) and no visible foreign material in the filter.........................
after furling the genoa and once again completely vertical I started the engine, it started instantly and ran for about 20 seconds then stopped suddenly, no hiccup, no stutter, just dead.

I gave it about 30 seconds, turned ignition key back on, gave glow plugs about 10 second burst and pushed start button. Turned over easily but didn't fire within say 3 seconds so turned off again before flooded exhaust. Second and third attempts over next 10 minutes gave same result so we dropped the main and floated up to a jetty.

15 minutes later and just before calling my mechanic I tried again and hey presto, started first spin and runs fine, so not a fuel blockage problem, and whatever happened to resolve itself, it happened with just time, the fuel pump was not turned on.

Big issue is, the identical situation happened 18 months ago, after a very similar sail, and with identical result and I couldn't find the cause of the problem then. My fuel system is absolutely stock standard as delivered from factory.

My wife is now saying she won't go out again until the problem is "fixed", any ideas gratefully received and I will also ask Warren Pandy if he is aware of this problem occurring before. If air in system that moved because of strong lean, and as a result killed engine, why would just waiting resolve it?

Best regards
Russ Peel
Avalon #150
Russ Peel
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by wolfe10 »

Russ,

Any sign of air in the fuel system/fuel filters?

Was the electric fuel pump "clicking" as it should or was it going faster, as if there were air in it?

Since everything between the fuel tank and fuel pump is on the suction side, any place that air can enter the fuel system can cause issues. It wouldn't be that expensive to replace fuel lines from tank to filter and filter to pump and make absolutely positive that the Racor fuel filter gaskets are as they should be.

Did you check for power to the glow plugs (i.e. relay working and voltage around 12 VDC)? You can usually tell that the relay/glow plugs are working by watching the voltmeter at the helm-- it drops a volt or so when the glow plugs are on.

Basically, if a diesel is turning over at normal speed, glow plugs are working, fuel is about the only other system of import.

Since the engine turned over at normal speed, it does not sound like hydro-lock from water getting into the engine from the exhaust. But, I assume you do have the anti-siphon set up for your exhaust.

Brett
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by Chips Ahoy! »

I had a similar problem two years ago...engine starts immediately then cuts off in 11 sec. Restart attempts fail...let her rest...she's back and stays running.

There was a tiny break in the fuel line...took me some time to find it. Need a good flashlight and patience. Flex the line and you might see it open up a bit.

Air was getting in. Electrical tape covering the break cured it until I replaced the line.

Good Luck.

-george
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by russp »

Thanks for response Brett and George.

Quick answers to your questions Brett
[*] No, no sign of air in fuel system but I can't see in top of Racor, and haven't dismantled anything yet
[*] With engine compartment blower going I couldn't hear fuel pump "ticking" so can't answer that question. All I do know is that the ignition and thus fuel pump weren't turned on for more than 3 + 9 + 3 + 3 seconds total and there was no start (presumably no fuel) during that time. I.e. at no time did I just leave ignition on and allow possible priming to occur.
[*] I take on board the option and good logic in just replacing the lines and dismantling and checking Racor, especially given what George has suggested happened to his. I still can't make sense of it starting of its own accord given time - air doesn't disappear and fuel can't flow uphill !!
[*] Yes, definitely getting power to the glow plugs, you can see the voltmeter drop when turned on.
[*] Concur that problem can only be no fuel for a period of time, related to sailing on significant angle, question is why/how? Especially when engine not running during that time, so air is getting in or fuel is flowing back in a totally static system (if you can call anything on a yacht going to windward "static")
[*] Yes, have stock standard exhaust on 35B with water muffler then anti-siphon. This yacht has done 1400 hours motoring, 5000 NM + sailing with no problem prior to now.

Unless anyone has any additional brainwaves I am planning to follow logical path and check/replace fuel line from tank to engine and hope that problem never reoccurs. When we are cruising I would never by choice push the boat as hard to windward as we were while racing just now, but if we ever have to I don't want to finally make port and then find we have no engine!

Many thanks to you both,

Russ Peel
Avalon
Russ Peel
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digitalvillager
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by digitalvillager »

I'll throw in my 2 cents on this topic having recently had a mystery engine starving event. Unlike your description, we were able to motor for a few hours before the engine would suddenly start "starving" for fuel. This happened several times motor-sailing but would resolve itself in 1-3 minutes before we could discover the problem. When I pulled up to the gas dock to refuel, I noticed that there was negative pressure (vacuum) on the fuel tank when I removed the gas cap. We started chasing that issue and found that there was fuel standing in both vent lines. The logical conclusion was that the lift pump couldn't develop enough suction to clear the lines and pressurize the injector pump. We cleared and raised the vent lines which were routed below the the level of the elbows into the fuel tank due to the placement of generator lines and believed this solved the problem. A week later, the event happened again as were were approaching a bridge on an outbound tide! We were able to turn and sail back up the channel to avoid getting washed under the bridge. The engine was starving continuously at this point so we had something to chase. I checked the gas cap again and this time, no vacuum, so it wasn't clogged vent lines. To keep a long story from getting longer, it was the lift pump. The lift pump was wired through the oil pressure sensor so the only way to tell if the lift pump was operating was was to run the engine, but engine vibration was too much to be able to feel the pump work. The solution was to jumper the lift pump from a hot lead with the engine off. The lift pump was dead. We purchased a new pump from NAPA Auto parts which was almost a duplicate to the old pump but had slightly higher psi. Installed the new lift pump ($77 plus 2 hours) and haven't had a problem since. We also rewired the lift pump to a key switched hot lead so that it would perform two functions: 1) it makes the engine self-priming as described in the M35b manual, and 2) it provides pressurized fuel to the injector pump prior to start.

There has been several discussions in this forum about why the lift pump should remain wired to the oil pressure sensor (mostly to save the engine), but I have come to the conclusion that I would rather have 5 extra minutes of run time after the low oil pressure light comes on and take a chance on ruining the engine ($10K+) then to have the entire boat flushed under a bridge or worse ($50K+?).

The point of my too long story is to check the easy stuff first.
Charlie & Jeanne Monroe
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Amelia Island, Florida
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by dpaulo »

I've had a very similar problem. Recently while motoring for awhile in choppy weather the engine acted fuel-starved (rpms dropped way low, almost stalled out). When I returned to home marina I decided to change primary and secondary fuel filters (which were both very clean) and then could not prime the fuel line to start the engine. I checked for blocked line but jumped to the conclusion (correct) that my fuel lift pump was shot and called to order a replacement on a Friday afternoon so that I could have it early the next week.

The bottom line is that all has been well since replacing the pump and no more stalling episodes. The thing is, I don't believe that the pump has been working for a long, long time but I never had any problems starting the engine until I opened the fuel lines by replacing filters. My mechanic says it is impossible for fuel to get to the injectors without an operational fuel lift pump but I wonder if there was enough pressure push and vacuum pull for fuel to flow until I got into rough water (or opened the fuel line). I had never heard the fuel pump clicking until I replaced it!

dan
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by TBOT422 »

Dan,

Did you replace the fuel lift pump or the fuel lift pump solenoid?

From what I understand, the engine can not run without the fuel lift pump. However, the fuel lift pump recieves power from one of two sources. It can get power through the lift pump/glow plug solenoid, OR it can get it through the oil pressure switch. If the solenoid is not functioning, and the engine starts from existing fuel in the system, the oil pressure comes up and the fuel lift pump then becomes energized from the oil pressure switch. If this were the case, it may be difficult to hear the pump clicking while the engine is running.
Gary & Janet
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by saileagleswings »

The engine will run without the lift pump! I know because we found the lift pump bad while offshore in the Gulf of Mexico. After running about 24 hours after leaving the dock, the engine stopped. In the troubleshooting process, we replaced the fuel filters although they were clean, replaced the fuel hose, checked all the connections and even swapped the fuel pickup with the generator pickup at the tank. We carefully checked the seals on the Racor filter. We eventually found that the lift pump had failed. It was probably bad when we left the dock.

We carefully pressurized the fuel tank to force fuel to the injection pump and then bled the injectors. After about 24 hours of motor sailing in heavy seas, the engine stuttered again. I filled the Racor filter and we were able to clear the air without bleeding the injectors. This happened two or three more times. It also happened once when the throttle was rapidly increased. I have run the engine hundreds of hours both motoring and motor sailing on a heal since replacing the lift pump without incident. Naturally, I now carry a spare.

My theory (half baked or otherwise) is that without the lift pump generating positive pressure in the fuel line and filter, air very slowly gets sucked in through a seal or fitting.
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by Amnesia »

Going to windward...pretty hard over...

If all the other suggestions come up negative...

Which tack? Port or Starboard? Were you flooding the exhaust on an extreme port tack? Did the muffler need to be drained to prevent back pressure (similar to trying to start after running the starter for 30 seconds without ignition)?

I congratulate you and am very envious if you were sailing at good speed "pretty hard over". My 350 has little control at 25 degrees heel or more and sails faster on its feet. I wish I could sail well "pretty hard over", (it's way more exciting) but for some reason in my hull #169 the boat is just more responsive and faster upright (use the traveler to dump some air over 18kts of true wind with a 135% jib).
Mike Emery

S/V Amnesia
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by dpaulo »

I replace the fuel lift pump only. The solenoid was fine. As soon as I installed the new pump I was able to hear the clicking noise for the first time when I turned the key to first position. dan
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by TBOT422 »

SailEaglesWing,

r.e.
The engine will run without the lift pump!


I believe your post verifies just the opposite, or at least the engine will not run reliably without the fuel lift pump. Something has to pressurize the fuel system in order for the engine to run. It's possible that other factors may keep the fuel pressurized for a period of time after the fuel lift pump fails, maybe even something as simple as gravity from a full fuel tank on one tack or the other. But, eventually the engine will not run with a non-working fuel lift pump as your post verifies.
We carefully pressurized the fuel tank to force fuel to the injection pump
How did you do that? I hope I don't need it, but it would be a good process to know.

Thanks
Gary & Janet
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by TBOT422 »

Dan,

r.e.
I was able to hear the clicking noise for the first time when I turned the key to first position
According to the Westerbeke Wiring Diagram #200360, the fuel lift pump should NOT be energized in the 'first position' of the key switch. It should only be energized from the 'glow' position of the key switch (the second spring loaded position), OR from positive oil pressure from the oil pressure sensor.

However, I have read that some owners disagree with this design logic and have re-wired the pump so that it is energized from the ON position of the key switch. It's also possible that your engine is from a different model not covered by the Westerbeke #200360 diagram.
Gary & Janet
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by digitalvillager »

Gary-
STOP THE PRESSES! You bring up a very interesting point. Your key switch apparently has 3 positions (off, glow and the spring-loaded start). My boat, and I'm guessing others, have only two positions (off and glow) with a start button and stop lever to perform those functions. This could be why there are different opinions about wiring the lift pump. In my case, the lift pump was not energized until the oil pressure sensor sent a signal during/after starting by pushing the "start" button to begin the process, otherwise the pump received no signal. We had to jumper the pump to purge the system which is counter to what Westerbeke says in their manual about the system being self-priming. This is one of the reasons why I chose to wire the lift pump directly to the "glow" position. Something in the ignition sequence must have changed between Hull 285 and 422.
Charlie & Jeanne Monroe
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by TBOT422 »

DigitalVillager,

Our boat has a 3-position key switch (OFF, ON, and GLOW). It also has an engine start button that activates the starter, and a Stop Handle that you pull to turn the engine off. When we first bought the boat I didn't even realize there was a GLOW position on the key switch. Living in FL, there is rarely a need to activate the glow plugs to provide sufficient heat to ignite the diesel fuel.

From what I've read, the Westerbeke design philosophy (at least at some point in time) was to wire the fuel lift pump such that it would stop working if the engine lost oil pressure, and hence protect the engine from massive damage. Apparently from things we are reading on this board, that protection may not work. Per what SailEaglesWings states, the engine could run a significant length of time with a non-functioning fuel lift pump.
Gary & Janet
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by digitalvillager »

Gary-
Westerbeke seems to be approaching the issue from 2 conflicting directions: They say the engine should be self-priming after a filter change, but it isn't unless you grind on the ignition for a too long period of time or jumper the lift pump from a hot lead. Routing the lift pump through the oil pressure sensor is good unless you are about to be swept under a bridge or pushed up on the rocks causing $10K+++ damage due to a potentially faulty oil pressure sensor.

I think you have an advantage with a 3 position switch since your lift pump should be activated in the 2nd "on" position. Is this correct?
BTW- We're in FL too. Ain't it great to sail year round?
-Charlie
Charlie & Jeanne Monroe
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by saileagleswings »

How did we pressurize the fuel tank? I have an electric air compressor that I use to inflate the dinghy. We put duct tape around the compressor hose fitting and the part of the fuel tank port leaving a little air gap so as to not allow the pressure in the tank to build up too much. Not recommended for home use but I was in the Gulf of Mexico.

The engine will run without the lift pump for a sustained period but not like it can be eliminated from the system according to my experience. Without a spare and no part suppliers handy, we ran the engine from somewhere off the Texas coast all the way to Punta Gorda, FL before replacing the lift pump. Keeping the fuel level up in the tank helps, no doubt.
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Re: Engine dies - after hard sailing, not during

Post by TBOT422 »

Charlie,

2 different issues. After changing the filters, there will be air in the fuel system. The engine should be 'self priming' thru the fuel lift pump without 'grinding' the starter only if you open the bleed screw on the top of the secondary fuel filter mounted on the engine until fuel appears. The fuel lift pump should activate whenever the key switch is in the proper position to activate it on your boat. In my case that would be the third spring-loaded GLOW position. On your boat it may be the ON position.

If the bleed screw isn't opened, the fuel lift pump creates pressure in the fuel system, but there is still air in the filters and lines connecting them. This air has to go somewhere before the engine will start. You can either open the bleed screw and let the air out, or you can grind on the starter until the air flows through the injectors and the engine until fuel begins to reach the engine cylinders.

I agree with you about the issues of a faulty oil pressure sensor potentially shutting down the engine. Although from what SailEaglesWing has stated, that may not be the case. It would be easy to test. With the engine running, simply disconnect the power to the fuel lift pump (whether from a hot wire or the oil pressure sensor) and see how long the engine continues to run.

Yes, FL is a great sailing location. I always laugh each year around Sept/Oct when all the northern boats on this board are pulling their boats out of the water for the 'season'. We're on the 'other' coast from you and sail mostly in the Gulf of Mexico from Tarpon Springs to the FL Keys.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
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