Has anyone separated the alternator charging circuit from the started?
It appears there is a jumper from the alt to the starter to direct current back to the start battery.
I am in the process of replacing the 2 4D's with 4 6V batteries and have already added a third bank.
I am assuming it is wired this way according to the electrical diagram that came with the engine.
My plan is to put the house bank on postion 1 and the start battery on position 2.
Always leaving the selector in position 1. If I have an issue starting, I can select the reserve on Pos 2.
Have alt output directly to the house bank with an eco chrger to the start battery.
Then bring the starter wire to the common terminal of the switch.
Any thoughts?
Mark Alexander
#162
Kerr Lake NC
Alternator output
Moderator: KenKrawford
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Alternator output
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
Mark,
That will work just fine. Leave alternator to starter. Less loss due to resistance from alternator to batteries using that battery cable-gauge wire. Wire from starter to Common/out on the switch. House bank through battery cable-gauge wire to #1 on selector and auxiliary battery/start battery to #2.
As always, be sure to never turn the switch to off or through off with the engine running, or the alternator diodes will be destroyed.
If you have upgraded alternator and regulator to an external sense, voltage loss is a little less critical, since you can put the sense wire directly on the positive terminal of the house battery bank. That way alternator will put out enough voltage to account for voltage loss and still give the batteries full voltage it is programmed to do.
Brett
That will work just fine. Leave alternator to starter. Less loss due to resistance from alternator to batteries using that battery cable-gauge wire. Wire from starter to Common/out on the switch. House bank through battery cable-gauge wire to #1 on selector and auxiliary battery/start battery to #2.
As always, be sure to never turn the switch to off or through off with the engine running, or the alternator diodes will be destroyed.
If you have upgraded alternator and regulator to an external sense, voltage loss is a little less critical, since you can put the sense wire directly on the positive terminal of the house battery bank. That way alternator will put out enough voltage to account for voltage loss and still give the batteries full voltage it is programmed to do.
Brett
Brett Wolfe
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
Re: Alternator output
I would agree that leaving the jumper from the alternator to the starter is good. However, I believe if you physically trace the battery to starter wiring you will find it different than Brett describes. I haven't physically traced the wiring, but I believe you will find the starter is connected to the Engine ON/OFF switch - not the common of the A/B switch. I believe the Engine ON/OFF switch is then wired to the positive buss bar behind the battery switches, as is the common of the A/B switch, completing the electrical path as described by Brett.
If the alternator is wired to the starter, then any battery (or battery bank) that is selected to the ON position will be charged when the engine is running. If you were to leave the selector switch in the "1" position at all times, whatever is connected to the "2" position would not be charged when the engine is running. Hopefully it is charged when you are connected to shore power. The Catalina 350 manual suggests leaving the selector switch in the "All" position if both batteries are of equal charge.
If the alternator is wired to the starter, then any battery (or battery bank) that is selected to the ON position will be charged when the engine is running. If you were to leave the selector switch in the "1" position at all times, whatever is connected to the "2" position would not be charged when the engine is running. Hopefully it is charged when you are connected to shore power. The Catalina 350 manual suggests leaving the selector switch in the "All" position if both batteries are of equal charge.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: Alternator output
The engine circuit is definitely isolated from the house bank/panel circuit.
I will install an echo charger so that the reserve battery can charged, either from the alt or shore power.
I has successfully used this method on my catalina 30. In three seasons, always started off the house bank with no issues.
I will also be changing the 30 amp charger to a Sterling 60amp charger (after the Annapolis boat show).
We like to stay out. Having a 60 amp charger and a honda 2000, I can let it run for an hour here and there and extend our stay out. If I run the engine too, that should dump alteast another 40 amps/hr too. Should have my 1/0 wire tomorrow.
New batteries going in this weekend. Not looking forward to removing the 4D's though.
Mark Alexander
Kerr Lake NC
I will install an echo charger so that the reserve battery can charged, either from the alt or shore power.
I has successfully used this method on my catalina 30. In three seasons, always started off the house bank with no issues.
I will also be changing the 30 amp charger to a Sterling 60amp charger (after the Annapolis boat show).
We like to stay out. Having a 60 amp charger and a honda 2000, I can let it run for an hour here and there and extend our stay out. If I run the engine too, that should dump alteast another 40 amps/hr too. Should have my 1/0 wire tomorrow.
New batteries going in this weekend. Not looking forward to removing the 4D's though.
Mark Alexander
Kerr Lake NC
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
Gary,
Not on the boat, and don't have the manuals here at home, but I believe you are absolutely correct in that there is an engine ON-OFF switch between starter and positive buss.
As you say, as long as the engine switch is on, it works just fine and as we both described. And, since the engine would not start with the switch off problems are unlikely. Unless one turned that switch off while running, no alternator damage would occur.
Not on the boat, and don't have the manuals here at home, but I believe you are absolutely correct in that there is an engine ON-OFF switch between starter and positive buss.
As you say, as long as the engine switch is on, it works just fine and as we both described. And, since the engine would not start with the switch off problems are unlikely. Unless one turned that switch off while running, no alternator damage would occur.
Brett Wolfe
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
Re: Alternator output
Mark,
Some advice on getting the 4D's out of the boat.
The 4D's can not be lifted straight up out of the settee. You need to tilt the end closest to the center of the boat up and out of the settee first then they will come out. Once they are out they are not too hard to handle lifting up the companion way one step at a time to the cockpit. Depending on your dock arrangement, getting them to the dock could be tricky to do unless you have a lot of good help. I had some left over 3/4" plywood shelving in my garage that I used to build a "gang plank". I tied a rope to them and simply slid them down the shelving to the dock.
Most important - cover everything that the batteries will get near and wear old clothes. My pants that I wore have holes all over them now.
I'm not sure what the 'echo charger' is or does, but if your engine start battery is connected to the #2 position of the battery switch it will be charged from the alternator if the selector switch is in either #2 or ALL positions. Of course, as Brett notes, the Engine ON/OFF switch should always be in the ON position when the engine is running to prevent damage to the alternator. As to charging them from shore power, I believe you will find 2 outputs from the shore charger going directly to the positive terminal of each battery bank through a 40-amp fuse. When the shore charger is on it will equalize and charge both banks. The standard Charles 30-amp charger has 3 outputs. If you have added a "third bank", you will need to run a new line/fuse from the shore charger to the positive terminal of the third bank.
The process we use is to set the battery selector switch (in our case 'switches') to ALL when starting/running the engine. This will charge ALL battry banks while the engine is running. When I turn the engine off to start sailing or at anchor, I will turn the engine start battery switch OFF so that it doesn't get run down and is fully charged in case I need it.
Some advice on getting the 4D's out of the boat.
The 4D's can not be lifted straight up out of the settee. You need to tilt the end closest to the center of the boat up and out of the settee first then they will come out. Once they are out they are not too hard to handle lifting up the companion way one step at a time to the cockpit. Depending on your dock arrangement, getting them to the dock could be tricky to do unless you have a lot of good help. I had some left over 3/4" plywood shelving in my garage that I used to build a "gang plank". I tied a rope to them and simply slid them down the shelving to the dock.
Most important - cover everything that the batteries will get near and wear old clothes. My pants that I wore have holes all over them now.
Yes-through the main 135-amp circuit breaker between the buss bar and the main house panel. However, the engine start circuity is not necessarily "isolated" from the "house bank" even though it is isolated from the "panel circuit" by the 135-amp C.B. The fact that you can start from the #1 house bank proves that the engine start circuit is not isolated from the house bank.The engine circuit is definitely isolated from the house bank/panel circuit.
I'm not sure what the 'echo charger' is or does, but if your engine start battery is connected to the #2 position of the battery switch it will be charged from the alternator if the selector switch is in either #2 or ALL positions. Of course, as Brett notes, the Engine ON/OFF switch should always be in the ON position when the engine is running to prevent damage to the alternator. As to charging them from shore power, I believe you will find 2 outputs from the shore charger going directly to the positive terminal of each battery bank through a 40-amp fuse. When the shore charger is on it will equalize and charge both banks. The standard Charles 30-amp charger has 3 outputs. If you have added a "third bank", you will need to run a new line/fuse from the shore charger to the positive terminal of the third bank.
The process we use is to set the battery selector switch (in our case 'switches') to ALL when starting/running the engine. This will charge ALL battry banks while the engine is running. When I turn the engine off to start sailing or at anchor, I will turn the engine start battery switch OFF so that it doesn't get run down and is fully charged in case I need it.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: Alternator output
An echo charger is a charging relay designed specifically for the situation I am proposing.
I will have all 6, 6V batteries as one large house bank on position 1. The start/reserve battery will be on position 2. Normally the selector switch will be in position 1 unless it is too week to start the engine, Then it would be switched to position 2 too start the engine. Once started, I would put it back to #1.
There ais a good diagram on the Catalina 34 site, http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
Echo charger http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Access ... 01-01).pdf
Currently there is no means to start the engine from the house bank.
I'll take some photos to share when completed. Hopefully this weekend.
I will have all 6, 6V batteries as one large house bank on position 1. The start/reserve battery will be on position 2. Normally the selector switch will be in position 1 unless it is too week to start the engine, Then it would be switched to position 2 too start the engine. Once started, I would put it back to #1.
There ais a good diagram on the Catalina 34 site, http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
Echo charger http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Access ... 01-01).pdf
Currently there is no means to start the engine from the house bank.
I'll take some photos to share when completed. Hopefully this weekend.
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
Mark,
Obviously all boats may be wired differently, but your last post contradicts your first post. In your last post you state:
Unless someone has re-wired your boat/starting configuration I suspect there is no reason for the echo charger if you utiliize the selector switches properly and wire the 3 outputs from the shore charger to the necessary banks.
Obviously all boats may be wired differently, but your last post contradicts your first post. In your last post you state:
In your first post you state:Currently there is no means to start the engine from the house bank.
The later seems to imply that you CAN start on the House Bank from position 1.Always leaving the selector in position 1. If I have an issue starting, I can select the reserve on Pos 2.
Unless someone has re-wired your boat/starting configuration I suspect there is no reason for the echo charger if you utiliize the selector switches properly and wire the 3 outputs from the shore charger to the necessary banks.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: Alternator output
Sorry for the confusion. I stated that , "My Plan" ( which has not been implemented yet)is to put the start battery on position 2. Currently it is not wired that way.
The current config has 1 4D on Pos 1 and 1 4D on pos 2. A start battery that is isolated from that config but does have an on/of selector switch.
The current config has 1 4D on Pos 1 and 1 4D on pos 2. A start battery that is isolated from that config but does have an on/of selector switch.
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
Mark,
I'm not sure, but I suspect that in your current configuration, your house bank does not appear to be charged from the alternator when the engine is running. If you can not provide power to the engine starter from the house banks (#1 or #2) to start the engine, then I don't see how the alternator provides power to the battery banks to charge them unless someone has run a new dedicated charging circuit from the alternator to the batteries. It's easy to check - what does the factory voltmeter read when the engine is running for either bank 1 or bank 2? Does it change when the engine is running or not running?
From what you are describing, someone has made major changes to the battery and charging system on your boat. I see no reason for this. I have a very similar setup as you are proposing with 6 6V batteries as house bank(s) and a separate 12V engine starting battery. Each bank can be charged from the alternator or shore power and each bank can independently start the engine without the use of an Echo charger/combiner. I have chosen to keep my 3 house banks as separate banks independently selectable via a series of A/B switches so that I can use any or all of them at will. But it makes no difference whether they were all wired together into a single big bank or are independently selectable, I see no need for the echo charger.
The previous owner of our boat was an electrical engineer who added the third house bank and the 12V starting battery. He also added a couple of A/B switches and voltmeters. He provided me with a detailed schematic of how things were wired that I have cleaned up as a Word document. There doesn't appear to be any way to post a Word document to this forum, but if you send me a private message, I would be happy to send it to you and you can modify it as necessary for your boats configuration.
I'm not sure, but I suspect that in your current configuration, your house bank does not appear to be charged from the alternator when the engine is running. If you can not provide power to the engine starter from the house banks (#1 or #2) to start the engine, then I don't see how the alternator provides power to the battery banks to charge them unless someone has run a new dedicated charging circuit from the alternator to the batteries. It's easy to check - what does the factory voltmeter read when the engine is running for either bank 1 or bank 2? Does it change when the engine is running or not running?
From what you are describing, someone has made major changes to the battery and charging system on your boat. I see no reason for this. I have a very similar setup as you are proposing with 6 6V batteries as house bank(s) and a separate 12V engine starting battery. Each bank can be charged from the alternator or shore power and each bank can independently start the engine without the use of an Echo charger/combiner. I have chosen to keep my 3 house banks as separate banks independently selectable via a series of A/B switches so that I can use any or all of them at will. But it makes no difference whether they were all wired together into a single big bank or are independently selectable, I see no need for the echo charger.
The previous owner of our boat was an electrical engineer who added the third house bank and the 12V starting battery. He also added a couple of A/B switches and voltmeters. He provided me with a detailed schematic of how things were wired that I have cleaned up as a Word document. There doesn't appear to be any way to post a Word document to this forum, but if you send me a private message, I would be happy to send it to you and you can modify it as necessary for your boats configuration.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: Alternator output
I installed 6- 6 volt batteries and did all the rewiring necessary to make one large house bank. The 30 amp Charles charger was working hard. Actually the 30 amp fuse holder from the charger to the battery was too hot to hold. I'm not sure if this was an issue prior. I discovered that the fuse in the other holder was blown. I replaced that fuse and had both outputs going to the same terminal. I effect I was splitting the load. It was not hot after that.
I will be upgrading to a Sterling 60 amp charger and will be running a #4 or #2 wire to make sure I am getting all I have paid for.
When I removed the 2 4D batteries, I discovered the PO must have had an acid spill which ate through the epoxy. At least 50% of the perimeter of the battery compartment has broke loss and would soon be cracking completely. I made a temporary fix until I come up with a good plan to fix it. So, y'all may want to peek in there just to make sure it isn't a Catalina issue.
Well that was the first phase, the next phase is to clean up the wiring and battery fusing. With the extra room in the box, I will install a positive and negative buss bars. With this config, I could actually remove the batteries and work off the charger as a power supply at the dock. ( Then I can fix the box and still stay on the boat.)
The final phase will be an external regulator and a wire from the alt back to the house bank.
I will be upgrading to a Sterling 60 amp charger and will be running a #4 or #2 wire to make sure I am getting all I have paid for.
When I removed the 2 4D batteries, I discovered the PO must have had an acid spill which ate through the epoxy. At least 50% of the perimeter of the battery compartment has broke loss and would soon be cracking completely. I made a temporary fix until I come up with a good plan to fix it. So, y'all may want to peek in there just to make sure it isn't a Catalina issue.
Well that was the first phase, the next phase is to clean up the wiring and battery fusing. With the extra room in the box, I will install a positive and negative buss bars. With this config, I could actually remove the batteries and work off the charger as a power supply at the dock. ( Then I can fix the box and still stay on the boat.)
The final phase will be an external regulator and a wire from the alt back to the house bank.
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
Mark,
I believe you will find the Charles charger manual requires a fuse at 120% to 150% of the charger's rated DC output at the batter. That's why one of your 30-amp fuses was blown. I had a hard time finding anything but 30-amp fuses and they regularly blew until I replaced them with 40-amp fuses.
I suspect you will have similar requirements for the new 60-amp charger, implying an 80-amp fuse. You can get them easily at any car audio store.
I'm not sure about your installation, but our boat has factory installed positive and negative buss bars behind the battery switches.
I believe you will find the Charles charger manual requires a fuse at 120% to 150% of the charger's rated DC output at the batter. That's why one of your 30-amp fuses was blown. I had a hard time finding anything but 30-amp fuses and they regularly blew until I replaced them with 40-amp fuses.
I suspect you will have similar requirements for the new 60-amp charger, implying an 80-amp fuse. You can get them easily at any car audio store.
I'm not sure about your installation, but our boat has factory installed positive and negative buss bars behind the battery switches.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
Re: Alternator output
That formula for fuse size is OK IF, repeat IF the wire is sized for that higher load. Fuses are there to protect the wire. Upsizing wire from charge source to batteries will insure less voltage drop.
If you upgrade your alternator and go with an external regulator, this (wire size) is not quite as critical if you move the sense wire to the battery terminal. That will just work your alternator a little harder but insure that voltage at the battery is what it should be.
Brett
If you upgrade your alternator and go with an external regulator, this (wire size) is not quite as critical if you move the sense wire to the battery terminal. That will just work your alternator a little harder but insure that voltage at the battery is what it should be.
Brett
Brett Wolfe
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
C350 #180
"Vindaloo"
Ft Myers FL
Re: Alternator output
I gotta chip in my two cents here. We were at anchor when our inline fuse blew while charging off the generator. Made the trip to Campbell River, figuring on walking into West Marine and picking up a couple of fuses. Ended up spending the entire day trying to find one, anywhere at all. These fuses are inline, and inside the battery box so must be explosion-proof fuses. The funny ends on them prevent just every day fuses from working. They have to be very special. We ended up finding and purchasing four of the buggers at a commercial radio and communications outfit. They service the microwave towers and the local radio stations gear. So, here's my two cents... when you find ONE of these, get a FEW of these. If you're out and about, and you lose one, you'll be very glad you did.
Al
S.V. Halona #17
Salish Sea
Al
S.V. Halona #17
Salish Sea
Re: Alternator output
Blew one of my fuses out. I can only assume it occured when one of the batteries gassed off. My fault, I had been quite lax in checking the water level in that battery, it had been sitting there as a starter and had never been used. That being said, I went on line and ordered replacement fuses from my phone, from Amazon, while floating down the bay and they showed up at my front door a couple days later. I currently have a single bank, 6-6v, 678 ah, 340 usable. I replaced the stock 50 amp alt with a self exciting 105amp truck alt. With the wonderful refrigeration I figure I go thur about 90ah a day. The large bank and the larger alt seem to make it pretty easy to get every thing charged with a little over 1 hr of motoring. If something unforeseen happens I do have a honda gen on board to junp start with. I believe the fuses are protecting the Charles charger, I don't think they have any thing to do with the alternator charging, thats done thru the big, thick wires.
Re: Alternator output
Mark - Turns out the black ground on the 1st back is ground for the boats DC system and the black ground on the 2nd is the ground for the engine. If you disconnect the black ground from bank 2 and try to start the motor you should find it won't start. Needless to say it took me a little while to figure out what was going on when I went two a single bank.
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malexander24
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: Alternator output
Interestingly, I had that issue, but figured it out quickly.
Mark Alexander
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
SV M & M
Kerr Lake NC
#162
Re: Alternator output
In reading this old string, a couple of posts indicate the house battery bank and engine start battery grounds are seperate. True? Are all DC negatives not connected to a common point?
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Sea Breeze
Re: Alternator output
Another question regarding alternator output. The Catalina wiring diagram for the M35B shows a positive wire going from the battery + terminal through a switch to the + terminal on the starter, then continuing on to the alternator B+ (output) terminal. This is the "power" circuit to the starter not the circuit that goes through the key switch. So, my question is ... does the alternator B+ terminal 'see' 12 volts when starter + terminal get energized? If so, is it necessary for proper operation of the alternator? It isn't the excite terminal according to the wiring diagram. Here's where I am going with this. Is the wire between the starter and alternator B+ just a cost savings strategy vs running a seperate "start" wire from battery to starter and a second wire I will call a "charge" wire from alternator B+ to battery +. If it is, then could the wire between the starter and alternator be removed and a seperate cable be run directly from alternator B+ to the battery + terminal (assume proper sizing and fusing). Why do this? There is a device made by Sterling Products called an 'alternator to battery charger'. It is wired between the alternator B+ output and the battery + terminal. It imposes a 3 step smart charging sequence (bulk, absorb, float) for battery charging. No need to make any modification to the alternator. Simple one wire from alternator B+ to Sterling device then one wire from Sterling device to battery B+. It expects to see alternator output not a surge of potentially higher amperage from the battery as the starter engages. I don't want to risk damage to the Sterling device. Alternator is rated at 51 amps. Sterling device is rated for 80 amp input.
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Rick Parish
Sea Breeze
Sea Breeze