Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

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Perseverence
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Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Has anyone installed a Selden Bowsprit on your 350? I am looking to install a Selden bowsprit along with a Selden GX10 furler to make it easier to use my asymmetrical spinnaker. From the specs provided by Selden, I cannot determine if the bowsprit will fit alongside of the double anchor roller and where to attach the ring. Again, if anyone has installed one of these bowsprit's I would appreciate some guidance on how it was accomplished. I would also be interested to know if anyone has installed any alternative solutions such as the CDI spinnaker furler. I currently use a sock with my asymmetrical, but I like the idea of furling the spinnaker which should be easier. Thanks in advance for your input and comments!
Perseverance
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

We have not installed the bowsprit, however we do fly a Doyle UPS (see avatar) using the Selden Code X furler (I'm not sure exactly which model). We simply connect the furler to the U-shaped ring above the port anchor roller. This does leave the tack of the asymetrical inside the bow rails, but we've had no problems. The U-Ring above the starboard anchor roller is outside the bow rail, but the luff rubs on the bow rail and doesn't furl/unfurl smoothly.

If I happen to fly it this weekend, I'll try to take some pictures of the furler.
Gary & Janet
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Thanks a bunch for the info, and the pictures would be very helpful. Knowing that you can connect the furler to the port anchor U-ring, leave the tack inside the bow rails, and you have all the required clearances is exactly what I need to know and I look forward to seeing some pictures. Your response brings to light one of my other decisions... I was thinking about 1) purchasing the Selden GX10 furler which has a tension line and can be used with my existing asymmetrical spinnaker; or 2) purchasing the Doyle UPS and the Selden code X furler which is exactly your setup, so your reply is very timely. Everything that I read about the Doyle UPS is that it is a very versatile sail which I would probably use more frequently than my asymmetrical. Do you fly the UPS often and what are your thoughts on the performance and how you like it. Thanks again!
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

Perserverence,

Here are some pictures I took this weekend. The Doyle UPS uses the Selden CX-10 furler.

As to the UPS versus a true asymetrical, that is a tough decision. There are pros and cons with each. I have used a North Sail G-2 asymetrical with a dousing sock on a Hunter 36 and the Doyle UPS on the C350. I have not found that the UPS performs as well as advertised. Yes, I can fly it heading about 35-40 degrees off the wind, but I get better performance from our 135 genoa at that point of sail. I find the UPS is useful from 65 degrees to 135 degrees combined with the main in apparent winds up to 10-12 knots. At more than 135 degrees, the main blocks the UPS some and it starts to flog. Although the UPS is MUCH better than the 135 genoa when going wing-on-wing. The light nylon of the UPS stays filled much better than the dacron genoa. The big advantage of the UPS is that you can set it up on the dock and furl and unfurl it as desired from the cockpit while sailing. I have installed it and stowed it while under sail though when necessary and it is not all that difficult with just my wife and I on the boat.

The disadvantage of the UPS when compared to a true asymetrical would be size. Our 135 genoa is about 400 sq feet. The UPS is about 600 sq feet or roughly the same as a 155 genoa. A true asymetrical would probably be around 800-900 sq feet. Because the tack of an asymetrical can be free to fly, you can let an asymetrical fly well in front of the boat. You can accomplish some of this by easing the spinnaker halyard on the UPS, but the tack is still tied to the bow. I suppose you would have the same issue by adding a furler to your existing asymetrical. By the way, will you have to do anything to strengthen the luff of your asymetrical in order to furl it with a furler? The UPS has a high strength luff line so that it will support the halyard tension necessary to furl it correctly.

The bottom line for me. If I already had an asymetrcial and dousing sock. I would use it. I wouldn't try to furl it, and I wouldn't buy the UPS unless it was really important that I have some sort of downwind sail that was really easy to use. If I already had a 155 genoa, I doubt the UPS would be very useful. However, since we had the 135 genoa, and were weighing the choices between an asymetrical and the UPS, we went with the UPS because it is so incredibly easy to use. When the winds start to pick up like they did this weekend, we just furled it and tied a wrap around it to make sure that it didn't accidentally unfurl. No messing with trying to douse an asymetrical in sloppy seas and high winds with only 2 people on board.

The only usage problems we have had with it in about a year is that it sometimes can get tangled with the furled genoa, or the genoa can get tangled with the UPS sheets when trying to use the genoa from behind the furled UPS. I believe most of those issues are our issues with learning how to use it. One time I tried to furl it before I re-tensioned the luff line, and it really didn't want to furl around a curving luff line. Of course, you can not tack with the UPS because you can't fit the clew between the UPS luff and the furled geona. So tacking involves furling the UPS, tacking, then unfurling the UPS. Not a big issue considering how easy it is to do.
Attachments
Furler4.JPG
Furler4.JPG (166.96 KiB) Viewed 15310 times
Furler3.JPG
Furler3.JPG (166.96 KiB) Viewed 15310 times
Furler2.JPG
Furler2.JPG (182.44 KiB) Viewed 15310 times
Furler1.JPG
Furler1.JPG (154.83 KiB) Viewed 15310 times
Gary & Janet
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Thanks Gary!!! Those are exactly the shots that I needed to see, and your input on the UPS is very helpful. I already have an asymmetrical and I was thinking about getting the Selden GX furler... this furler will work with an existing asymmetrical as it comes with an anti-torsion line which acts as the "rigid" luff which the asymmetrical does not have. When the furler is pulled in, the anti-torsion line spins and wraps up the furler. After much research, reading your input, and discussing with many others, I decided to purchase exactly what you have. I ordered the UPS from Doyle Sails and they are going to rig it to the Selden Code X furler. I sail in lake Erie so I will not have my boat in the water until early May, but I will report back and give my impressions of the UPS. You have been VERY helpful!
Frank
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

Frank,

Did you get your UPS yet? What do you think of it?

Here's a photo just after we crossed the finish line in a recent club race.
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Crossing the finish line
Crossing the finish line
UPS3b.JPG (123.25 KiB) Viewed 15199 times
Gary & Janet
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Hi Gary,
Wow... the sail looks great! I am in Erie (sail in Lake Erie) and I am just getting my boat rigged. I went down to the boat tonight and hoisted the UPS at the dock to check everything out but it was too late for a sail. The only thing that I am a bit confused about is the continuous line for the furling unit. My line is 45 feet long and when I received it I made a call because it sounded like the line was too long. I was told that I would have slack in the line but when I put the double cam cleat in the cockpit nothing seemed right... I could not determine how to get tension on the double cam cleat to furl / unfurl the sail with the line being so long. Do you know how long your furling line is and also where do you connect it in the cockpit. I really appreciate your input!
Regards,
Frank
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

Frank,

I'm not sure how long our furling line is. I run it along the port lifelines and it goes almost all the way back to the stern rail. Probably 45 feet total length (about 22.5 feet as a loop). I don't have the double cam cleat I have 3 small blocks that open sideways so that I can fit them over the loop to control the route of the line. 2 of them around mid-ships and 1 at the end of the loop near the stern rail. I then use a section of bungy cord to pull the loop tight toward the stern rail. I agree with you that the line needs to be tight in order to work. It is just like the furling line for the main sail. If the loop is loose it will just slide around the drum and not turn it.

I've thought about adding the double cam cleat because with our arrangement, there is no way to lock down the drum from turning, so there is the potential of the sail unfurling when not intended. I generally keep a sail tie around the UPS until I am ready to unfurl it and haven't had a problem. I believe with the double cam cleat and a taught loop, you could essentially lock down the drum and prevent it from turning, but the loop would need to be tight.

Good Luck -send pictures
Gary & Janet
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Gary,
My UPS was shipped with the double cam cleat block installed on the continuous furling line. I realized last night the problem is that they installed the double cam cleat backwards and that is why it made no sense to me. I found a picture of how the double cam cleat looks installed and have attached the image. As you can see, the loop of "free" line is supposed to go through the cam cleat and is in the cockpit. Mine was rigged in the opposite direction and the cam cleats would not lock the drum. I reversed it and need to get back down to the boat to try it out again. I also purchased the Selden double fairlead which attaches to a stanchion and is cool because you simply push-in and spin and it allows you to easily attach / remove the double furling line. The double cam cleat block has a snap shackle which will make it easy / quick to attach... I plan to attach it to the stern rail on the starboard side. I tried both the port and starboard side, but it appears that placing the double fairlead on the starboard mid-ship stanchion will allow for a straight run of the furling line without rubbing against any of the other stanchions or safety lines. From there the furling line will go back to the double cam cleat attached to the starboard stern rail (below where the safety line attaches). The thing that confused me (my last message) was that the furling line is 40 feet which seemed way too long... once I understood how the double cam cleat block works (and that it was installed backwards), I believe the long line makes sense. In theory the double cam cleat locks the line around the drum and provides tension. The "free" line that is left in the cockpit allows you various angles to pull in the furling line and if necessary (so is the theory) that you can also wrap it on a winch. The weather here has been way too windy to use the sail, but as soon as I am able to get it up I will take pictures of everything and post again... hopefully it works as planned! I very much appreciate the opportunity to share this information and leverage your knowledge.
Thanks again!
Frank
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SeldenCamCleat.jpg
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

The weather was good to fly the UPS for the first time. Here are some pictures...
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Double cam cleat and snatch block
Double cam cleat and snatch block
CamCleatANDblock.jpg (113.57 KiB) Viewed 15154 times
Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

Double fair lead on midship stanchion
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Double fair lead on midship stanchion
Double fair lead on midship stanchion
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

My wife furling in the UPS... was surprisingly easy to furl with the double cam cleat block.
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Furling the UPS
Furling the UPS
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

UPS was surprisingly easy to fly and we hit 6.5 knots in very light wind.
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Flying the UPS
Flying the UPS
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Perseverence
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Perseverence »

One last picture of the UPS
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Flying UPS
Flying UPS
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

Looking good!!

Presently at Fisherman's Village Marina in Punta Gorda, FL. We've been on the boat for a week now, and will start heading back some time???? It doesn't look to be much opportunity to sail the UPS on this trip winds have always been ahead of the beam and look to remain so for the next week or so. Maybe we should just change directions????
Gary & Janet
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saileagleswings
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by saileagleswings »

Are you still in Punta Gorda ?
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TBOT422
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by TBOT422 »

Back in CLW now. We had a great trip. We meet another couple from PG with a 350. Hope to see you again on our next trip.
Gary & Janet
The Best of Times (Hull #422)
cuthbert
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by cuthbert »

I am seriously considering adding a downwind sail and am stuck choosing between an assym vs doyle ups.

For the Doyle UPS
1) Who supplies everything in one go, sail plus line and blocks/cleats and continuous furler etc, or is it best to buy everything piecemeal and contact the local Doyle loft.
2) Has anyone bought a Doyle sail and needed it tweaked in size by the loft, i.e. Do some lofts (maybe FL) have better local knowledge on what works.
3) Practically how do you store the whole thing when not in use, since there is no UV protection I guess you put it up on the day you need it including furler etc? How small does it pack given that as described it has some semi stiff luff line?

For the assym
1) Any recommendations on who to by from and size/weight?
2) Any current users who have changed/modified the sail or sock after hitting some practical problems.

All advice gratefully received either online or via PM
Pgtjs
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by Pgtjs »

Hi there,

I have a Doyle Assymetrical Gennaker which has been used only once - it was built and installed by the Doyle dealer (from North Seattle) about 3 or 4 years ago. I have not used it since the original installation day as "my crew" is not interested in learning how to fly it - we are both a little older and the local conditions seldom are appropriate.

It comes with all the lines, shackles, pulleys, fairleads, etc and a bag specifically made for the sail. Also has the sock for raising and lowering it with lines to the cockpit. The hardware has been installed for that period on the stanchions and aft cleats but the sail has been in the bag in the aft cabin so is as new. Colour with radial design is blue and yellow and white. I would be pleased to see it go to another C350.

I think I paid $2600 including tax at the time but am happy to sell it for $2k or best offer plus shipping. I have photos of it on the ground and a Doyle diagram of the design and color specs.

If interested, email me at pgtjs@hotmail.com.

Geoff. S - C350 # 392 Taeko 1V , Blaine WA
Geoff.S., Semiahmoo, WA.
johnthejetpilot
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Re: Selden Gennaker Bowsprit

Post by johnthejetpilot »

First- THANK YOU to all who posted such fantastic descriptions and pix of the CX-10 setups you are using! I recently purchased a Code Zero and am looking into using the selden CX-10 (as others have) to mount it so I can furl and unful from cockpit. I currently have been using it with a sock, which works great but most of my sailing is solo and I prefer to accomplish as much as possible from the cockpit

The questions I have.. Aside from the listed following components below, what else would you recommend for the install?
1) CX-10 Drum and Halyard swivel
2) Endless furling line
3) Twin cam block for furling line
4) Double Fairleads

I attached pix of what I am considering buying to set this up. Most important question- for those who have installed the CX-10, did you buy and install the AT Torsion cable? If so, what size.. Dimensions for my Code Zero are Luff 44'9", Foot 26'10", Leech 41'2"

I look forward to any and all feedback and input.. My goal is to leave the CodeZero permanently mounted to the anchor hook (as others have).. So I can use in lighter winds. Yes, I realize a bowsprit would likely be helpful. However I like having both anchors mounted up front and don't really want to spend the extra $ for a bowsprit. TIA all!
Seldon CX10 setup.jpg
Seldon CX10 setup.jpg (195.45 KiB) Viewed 1776 times
Ave Maria
Hull 212
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